What would it take for you to truly embrace and even get excited about this season of life? In this episode, we’re thrilled to welcome back Kate Codrington—author and midlife coach—who always brings such warmth, joy, and wisdom to these conversations.

Together, we talk about the different stages of life as seasons—spring's exploration, summer's energy, autumn's reflection, and winter's rest. Kate and I challenge the idea that menopause is simply about loss and share how we can create gentle, nurturing rhythms to navigate these shifts with more ease.

We’ll also dive into Kate's Perimenopause Journal, which encourages simple daily self-check-ins, aligning with the seasons to make self-care feel natural and meaningful. This conversation is packed with wisdom, practical tips for self-love, and a fresh perspective on what's possible in midlife!

We’d love to hear your thoughts and questions, so please share them in the comments!

To learn more about Kate and her work, check out her website at https://www.katecodrington.co.uk/, and follow her on @kate_codrington on Instagram. 

 

Links: Heeding the Call for Change with Kate Codrington

Transcript

Introduction to the Midlife Feast

Jenn Salib Huber: 0:32
Hi and welcome to the Midlife Feast, the podcast for women who are hungry for more in this season of life. I'm your host, Dr. Jen Salib-Huber. I'm an intuitive eating dietitian and naturopathic doctor, and I help women manage menopause without dieting and food rules. Come to my table, listen, and learn from me, trusted guest experts in women's health, and interviews with women just like you. 

Each episode brings to the table juicy conversations designed to help you feast on midlife. And if you're looking for more information about menopause, nutrition, and intuitive eating, check out the Midlife Feast Community, my monthly membership that combines my no-nonsense approach that you all love to nutrition with community, so that you can learn from me and others who can relate to the cheers and challenges of midlife.

The Joy of Embracing Menopause

Jenn Salib Huber: 1:20
Have you ever found yourself wondering what would it take to look forward to menopause? What would it take for you to be excited about this season of life or to be able to accept what's happening to all the things in midlife? If you've ever wondered that question, you will want to listen or watch this episode with Kate Codrington. Kate is an author and a women's midlife coach, and she's written two books. 

Her first book was Second Spring, which we talked about on the podcast last year, and her book this year is a journal—it is the Perimenopause Journal. I love this book because it really taps into rhythms and routines, which is a concept near and dear to my heart about how do we create a kind of rhythm, a routine that feels good, that is nourishing, and also feels easy. So we talk a lot about this concept of seasons and how we can use these concepts to lean into menopause. So I hope you'll listen or watch, and if you have questions, make sure to pop them into the comments and let me know what you think. Hi, Kate, Welcome back to the Midlife Feast.

Kate Codrington: 2:41
Oh, and what a feast it is.

The Importance of Vulnerability in Menopause

Jenn Salib Huber: 2:44
We've already had a feasty conversation for about, you know, five, ten minutes, before we started to hit record, and I always look forward to listening to you, talking, to you reading what you have to write, because I think that your voice in this midlife space is so welcome. It's full of wisdom, but also just gentle care. It's just lovely. I just love everything that you have to say about this stage of life.

Kate Codrington: 3:09
Thank you, Jen. It means a lot to feel that my words are landing well. I think that I have such a radically different viewpoint from the mainstream that sometimes I think. Sometimes I wonder if the compassion and surrender and possibilities for personal growth that I see in perimenopause for other people might sound like broken crockery on a tiled floor if they're suffering.

Jenn Salib Huber: 3:39
So yeah, it's yeah, thank you. Well, and one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you today is because the theme for this year's podcast, if anybody hasn't listened to the first episode that came out on the 16th, is leaning into menopause, and leaning in from a place of acceptance, not resignation, and having something to look forward to. And I think this is, you know, as I mentioned in that podcast, one of the missing pieces, at least from what I see, is this idea that we don't have to run away from menopause. 

That's not to say that there aren't unpleasant bits. There are, absolutely. There are uncomfortable places, there are symptoms that can wreak havoc in life, but it doesn't mean that it's awful; it doesn't mean that it's only bad things. So I was really excited to talk to you about this concept of leaning in. So what do you hear, or what do you think? What comes to mind when I say leaning into menopause?

Kate Codrington: 4:49
Well, when we were talking before we hit record, I had to ask you what you meant by that, because my initial understanding is of leaning in is that leaning into support is to allow ourselves vulnerability and to allow ourselves, our vulnerability, to be supported by others. So I think it's actually a two-way thing. I think that is really important, that we—because in perimenopause transition years, we're typically too exhausted to mask anymore, we're too exhausted to pretend to keep up a nice smiley face, and be—and that's for neurotypical people as well, and especially anybody with neurodivergence; the masking will have just gone and that causes a whole load of difficulties.

Kate Codrington: 5:47
So it's a really good time to say to acknowledge this is hurting. I feel wobbly here. How can I support myself so externally? But the internal piece is absolutely essential for perimenopause.

Acceptance and Surrender in the Menopause Journey

Jenn Salib Huber: 6:06
And.

Kate Codrington: 6:07
I also think that so is the fighting. So my training has been in Red School, and this is their concept. The seasons and the phases of menopause. The first phase is a phase of actually rejecting and fighting. It's a phase of really feeling the conflicts of I don't want this, of the battle, of this is not acceptable. I'm falling apart. The fear, all the difficulty, is the first phase. When you meet with a difficulty, humans don't like pain. We move away from it, and that's normal. And that shifts over time towards acceptance, and it's absolutely essential for growth that we come into a place of some degree of acceptance about what is happening to us.

Kate Codrington: 7:05
And of course, that's not a kind of permanent state. Oh, I was fighting. No, I'm perfectly accepting, and that's done and dusted. Obviously, we go backwards and forwards between the two. That's just how we are. But the second phase of the menopause process, the whole process, is surrender, and this is a place where we come to deepen our relationship with ourselves, to really commit to loving ourselves, and that goes right across the board, through the way that we eat, of course, and the way, the sort of language we use for ourselves and, when we're tired, to allow ourselves to rest. 

So it really goes across the board and it kind of creates a sort of sweetness in our lives that can heal just so much, because you don't get to 45, 35, 45, whenever you're experiencing perimenopause issues, without being wounded, without having been kicked around a bit in your life, because that's normal. So this is a time when the wounding from our lives is naturally more sensitive at this time, and this is a time when the wounding from our lives is naturally asking to be healed. Unfortunately, it's also a time when in our lives we're also extremely busy. So there's a major conflict right there that everybody understands.

Kate Codrington: 8:42
But actually, perimenopause is asking us to step back, to step away from life, to step towards ourselves, to actually lean in. That's the requirement; that's what's being asked of us, and it's really hard because we don't know that; nobody talks about it. You and I talk about this, but nobody said when we were 20, oh, you'll be great; you get so much done and it'll be so interesting in your 20s and 30s. And then I recommend you take a step back in your 40s. Imagine if you had been told that, Jen, when you were 18.

Reflections on Personal Growth and Acceptance

Jenn Salib Huber: 9:23
And it's hard to. I mean, as an 18-year-old, one, you think you know everything, and you think that you're—you finished growing up, right? And so you really have to have a few years of life before you realize that, okay, I actually know nothing, and maybe my parents knew something, but I find that by the time you have some sensibilities about life, this concept of middle age or midlife still feels so far off in the distance that it's never going to happen to you, or it's so far in the future that you just can't imagine it. You just can't imagine it. Because I keep thinking, I wish I had known how incredible this transition would be, how transformational, how powerful, how comforting, even, how much confidence and comfort I have found in the phase of acceptance.

Jenn Salib Huber: 10:26
But it's really hard, and I want to come back to something that you said about the wounds demand to be healed. I think that was the words that you used, and the first thing that jumped to mind was the wounds that we have carried with us about our bodies and our body image, and because I see this very clearly now that anybody who has spent their lives trying to change or control what their body looks like through food and exercise is confronted with their truth in midlife that they don't have the control that they thought, and that the cost of maintaining that control becomes too great to maintain, and that wound is ripped open. And it's just, it's hard. I mean, I see it every single day, women who are struggling with body image, self-acceptance, with aging, and with all the things. So can you say more about that? What do you think about that?

The Impact of Body Image on Menopause

Kate Codrington: 11:20
So I think the whole diet culture, the body image stuff, all of those conversations that we are hearing all the time—my heart really breaks for those women, because we're not taught that the world can be a different place, and the world as it stands will be completely oppressive in many ways. But even in terms of our bodies, this idea that as women age, we become invisible. I'm so sorry, but we can look at what we can see as this invitation to become more present, to be really more visible in our own lives.

Kate Codrington: 11:55
So many women tell me, oh my God, I feel like I can be invisible in my 50s. And it's true, and it's incredibly sad. It's incredibly sad. But actually, when we realize that our invisibility is about the world and how the world sees us, we can reclaim that. That's a kind of superpower. That could be a kind of superpower. So many women say, no, I'm not going to fade into the background. I refuse to be invisible, and I refuse to sit down, and I will go through my menopause journey as I am. So it becomes a real empowerment, and that can take so many different forms, and sometimes it might take the form of rage against the system. Sometimes it might take the form of laughter with our friends about the ridiculousness of it. It might take the form of community activism.

Kate Codrington: 12:46
It could take so many different forms, but there is something about the invisibility in a culture that is so youth-obsessed that we can turn on its head and find something really beautiful. So it's a reframe; it's all a reframe, and of course, it won't happen just like that. I mean, I'm not saying that I go to my mindfulness practice, and then suddenly I'm a wise old crone. It doesn't work like that. It takes work. It takes practice, and I think it also takes a bit of responsibility to ourselves to nurture that light that we have, and that's absolutely crucial.

The Role of Community and Connection in Menopause

Jenn Salib Huber: 13:23
I mean, it absolutely does. It takes practice. It takes nurturing. I think it also takes community. I know you mentioned the importance of connecting with others, especially for women. We can sometimes feel isolated in the experience of menopause, especially if we don't know many people who are also experiencing this. But finding that community—what are some ways that women can find that community? What do you think?

Kate Codrington: 13:51
I think that it's vital that women are supported, and that support can be varied. You know, that can be friends, it can be family members, it can be colleagues. It could be people that you, even people you don't know. You could be connecting to people online. I mean, when I went through my second spring, the first time I reached out to somebody who lived in Australia, and I thought, that's crazy, but actually, it was so liberating to find a woman who was so similar, who lived so far away. We were just supporting each other through a process.

Kate Codrington: 14:30
That can be really, really wonderful. The other thing is, there's an opportunity for coaching and supporting as well. So I do coaching in groups and one-on-one. I know that there's a lot of this community feel when women are together. It doesn't have to be coaching in the sense of what to do; it can be, how do we talk about this? What’s important? And how do we feel heard? So having a community, having a space that’s safe and nurturing, is essential for women who are going through menopause.

Kate Codrington: 14:59
So it doesn’t always have to be formal, but if women are feeling isolated, the first thing they can do is reach out. There are lots of women who are out there feeling the same way. Women can start to say, “Hey, I’m experiencing this.” Look for groups online. I mean, there are many, many groups on social media where women are discussing this, and I find that very heartwarming.

Jenn Salib Huber: 15:19
It’s so important, and I love that you mentioned that it can be informal as well, because I think it is sometimes hard to join a formal group, especially if it’s something that feels vulnerable or if it’s a conversation that feels intimate. It can feel very scary. So I think you're right that reaching out to friends and being more informal is a good way to ease into conversations around this.

Kate Codrington: 15:38
Absolutely. And in a way, when we lean into menopause, we really discover what's happening in the world, and that may just be one woman. It could just be a friend. It could just be a few people. It doesn’t have to be big. But just having that one person where you can just be real about what’s happening for you can make a world of difference.

Jenn Salib Huber: 15:58
And one of the things that I really appreciate about this stage of life is that I feel much more willing to have those open and honest conversations with people. I mean, it wasn't long ago that I would have been too afraid to say, “You know, I’m having some symptoms of menopause, and it sucks.” But I feel like, in this stage, it has allowed me to step into that vulnerability a little bit more, to own that, and to say, “Okay, this is part of my journey, and it's okay to share that.”

Kate Codrington: 16:23
And it's brave to share that. We have to make the choice to share that, and that’s a kind of a superpower, too. So if you find yourself surrounded by friends, try it. Try speaking to them, and it could be a revelation. You may find that you’re surrounded by women who say, “Oh my God, me too. I thought it was just me.”

Jenn Salib Huber: 16:44
So if you are listening and you're thinking about this journey and wanting to embrace it, I think Kate's words are just such a beautiful reminder that you are not alone, that there are so many women out there who are navigating this together. So lean into the conversations, lean into the community, and find your voice in this experience, because it is possible to embrace menopause and even find joy in it.

Embracing the Positive Aspects of Menopause

Jenn Salib Huber: 19:29
And I love that you said that, because I bring up that research in the first episode this season about. You know, we have nice long-term studies of, you know, self-reported happiness before and after menopause and it is clear that we're happier after. But not enough people are talking about that. You know there's so much focus on what you lose. Oh, you lose muscle, you lose mobility, you lose, you lose, you lose.

Jenn Salib Huber: 20:01
But what you gain is actually, I think, inner peace. You know, a real knowing of yourself, what you want, what you don't want, what you like, what you don't like, and a really clear path forward Because you're no longer motivated, like you were saying in your 20s and 30s. You know, by wanting to do, do, do the motivation for what you want to do and why just changes, just like the seasons change it. Just it's happening, but you have to notice it. I think you have to nurture it. I think the nurturing piece is what you do so well. You help put words to these rhythms and routines that people can kind of step into and fall into to help with these seasonal changes. I'd love to hear some more on your thoughts on creating rhythms and routines to support the change of season.

Kate Codrington: 20:57
Yeah, the best thing for me is space. I think and this, you know, this is often life is so busy, ridiculously busy, it often feels out of our reach. But space spaciousness can be a moment, it can be a breath. It can be creating an extra five minutes between your Zoom meetings, where you do not scroll, where you gaze out of the window. It can be getting up five minutes earlier, definitely, if you possibly can not, starting with your phone.

Morning Routines and Mindfulness

Kate Codrington: 21:36
I am a living experiment. Every day that I start with my phone is horrible. I feel horrible. My stress levels are automatically higher if I start doing that. When I start by pottering around the kitchen, making a cup of tea, scribbling in my journal or looking at the birds, it doesn't have to be anything very special, it doesn't have to be anything very fancy, but having that building that spaciousness into my morning, even if it's five minutes, sets the tone of my day. So I think that having rhythm, particularly you know, it's a really easy win. Low bar, I always start with what is easy. I mean I start and can end with what is easy and doable because, yeah, life is hard. So it's a really easy win to give a bit more spaciousness in your morning and do something that pleases you. I love my garden, I love the birds, so sitting and looking at the birds and wondering what's happening and looking at the plants is just an easy win for me and it totally sets up my day.

Jenn Salib Huber: 22:47
It does. I love the visual of space, too, and bookending the day with space. So I'm the same as you I love when I can convince my future self to go to bed and leave my phone downstairs and wake up without it, because it absolutely changes how I start and end the day. So I'm going to try and use that visual of space, of bookending a day with space, to help with that intrinsic motivation that we're always trying to tap into Because it does it's a game changer that we're always trying to tap into because it does. It's a game changer. Um, waking up quietly, waking up without the intrusion of all the information that we have to start processing the minute our eyes open, um, or processing until the very last second we fall asleep yeah, yeah, because that you know, there there's.

Kate Codrington: 23:40
I think we're chronically overstimulated, we think it's normal to have more and more and more and more stimulation and there's no end to it. And your friend will always tell you to listen to the podcast or read that article, or did you see so-and-so's post, or you catch up with your friends on social media or you Google something about whatever you're interested in, and it's normal to have more and more stimulation. But it's not good for us. It's not good for us and we need processing time.

Journaling for Self-Reflection and Growth

Jenn Salib Huber: 24:16
Let's talk about processing for a minute. So this lovely journal that has just come out. I love the recap of the seasons but in the interest of creating space and not taking up too much time, I also love how you have laid out the journal prompts Very, very simple five minutes and connecting to the season. Five minutes and connecting to the season.

Kate Codrington: 24:46
One question that I have is how do people who don't have a cycle connect to the seasons? Thank you so much Because the journal it does say perimenopause journal on the front, but I have a sort of not particularly secret mission to have everybody, regardless of whether they menstruate or not, understand the seasons and how to care for themselves. Because it makes everything so easy, it gives us agency, it puts us in charge of what we need and it stops us overthinking, it stops the shame and it stops judgment. So, whether you have a menstrual cycle or not, you're. Why don't we all do this? We check in right now. How are you feeling?

Recognizing Emotional States Through Seasons

Kate Codrington: 25:26
So if you're feeling like you want to go, if you check in and you feel like you want to go back to bed, that's winter. If you check in and you feel a bit excited about what's Kate going to say next, that's a really interesting idea. That's spring. That's kind of inspiration. That's kind of inspiration, awe, wisdom, experimenting, playfulness, summer. I'm feeling very good and sick. If you look in the mirror in the morning, you're going hmm, hello, hot stuff, that's summer. You'll probably be stuffed full of oestrogen and the capacity to multitask. Hooray for you. Those days of the multitasking at least has gone for me and if you're feeling, how can I say? If you're noticing your needs, if you're noticing your vulnerability, if you're noticing strong feelings, if you're noticing internal or external critical voice, that will be autumn and there we are.

Kate Codrington: 26:35
So it's really straightforward and through our days, whether you're menstruating or not, you will be feeling all these different things and just going instead of going. Oh God, I'm such a critical bitch. I really should work on my mindset because I really shouldn't have this thought about myself or about my friend or about that person on Instagram and I'm so negative and I'm awful and I hate my body and blah, blah, blah. 

Instead of going into that whole and Jen says that I should be doing this and Kate says I should be doing that Instead of going off on a complete overthinking spiral, you just go. Oh hello Autumn. I need more space. Boom. It's so simple. Such a capacity to complicate things, and life is already complicated in the world. So that that's the thing and that this is. This is what I'm encouraging in the journal every day to notice what season did I, what did I feel yesterday or you know, depending on when you're filling it in, what season did I feel and how did I care for that? I?

Jenn Salib Huber: 27:51
like that reflection. What did I do? How did I nourish it? How did I lean in?

Kate Codrington: 27:58
Very often I'm really tired and I don't have time to rest, so that's a really interesting thing to note. I didn't have time to rest today, so that's a really interesting thing to note. I didn't have time to rest today and just writing that down and there might be judgment or shame there or rage or all kinds of things in that statement. But looking back over a month of these little notes, or looking back over a year of these little notes, it has such a power. We get so much clarity out of very small things like that.

Jenn Salib Huber: 28:32
So true, because you have to mark where you've been, to see where you've been, otherwise it just gets kind of lost in the ether of the past.

Kate Codrington: 28:41
Yeah, we operate in a continual present where we feel, oh, I've always believed this, or this is the way it's always been. So we miss the nuance of change in our lives.

Embracing Possibilities Beyond Menopause

Jenn Salib Huber: 28:51
I love that. Thank you for that. I want to end by sharing one of the things that I loved about this drawing this little beautiful image. People often say when I say you know menopause is going somewhere

Jenn Salib Huber: 29:59

Yeah, absolutely, oh, my goodness, Thank you. Yes, you have something else to say.

Kate Codrington: 30:06

No, that's the pointy finger. Nourish yourself now so how?

Jenn Salib Huber: 30:14

so? I'm sure there's going to be lots of people who are very excited to learn more about you and this book and your work. Where can they learn more?

Kate Codrington: 30:21

oh, thank you, my. I'm on instagram at kate underscore codrington and my. My website is Kate Codrington dot. Co dot, uk. I'm the only one with that. No, there is, there's an architect in Australia with the same name, so it's not hard to find me. And the perimenopause journal is available world. No, it's available in Europe and the UK and America and Canada at the moment and will be in Australia as well on the 1st of November.

Jenn Salib Huber: 30:52

Well, that's very exciting. Thank you so much, kate. So last question what do you think is the missing ingredient in midlife?

Kate Codrington: 31:05

I think it's love. I think there is an absence of love.

Jenn Salib Huber: 31:12

Yes, I think that's a worldwide absence.

Kate Codrington: 31:15

Yeah, it is. And before we get too glum about that, it's something that we can take agency over every day because we can always come back to how can I love myself right now? What would be lovely for me right now? We can always come back to that.

Jenn Salib Huber: 31:36

That's a lovely thing to add in as we talk about in. Gentle Nutrition is what can you add in, and love is what you can add in. Yeah, amazing. Thank you so much Kate.

Kate Codrington: 31:49

Thank you, Jen. I feel like I can't believe this is the end.

Jenn Salib Huber: 31:53

I think it's just the end for now, I'm sure. Thank you, jen, always a joy to talk to you. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the midlife feast. For more non diet, health, hormone and general midlife support, click the link in the show notes to learn how you can work and learn from me. And if you enjoyed this episode and found it helpful, please consider leaving a review or subscribing, because it helps other women just like you find us and feel supported in midlife., good, just lean in